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10/22/2003 Entry: "Weary, worn and sad"

I'm as up for a bit of controversy as the next man. Nothing I like more than an argument. Sometimes, though, the attraction begins to wear thin. A free and frank exchange of views, a robust conversation in which points of view are not only put with conviction but listened to with respect is a fine thing. But if the conversation is a dialogue of the deaf, it so easily descends into sub-Python self-parody

A: I came here for a good argument.B: No you didn't. You came here for an argumentA: Well, an argument's not the same as contradictionB: It can be.A: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a definite proposition.B: No it isn't.A: Yes it is. It isn't just contradiction.B: Look, if I argue with you I must take up a contrary position.A: But it isn't just saying 'No it isn't'.B: Yes it is

So what does make a "good" argument? I'd list: a willingness to listen, responding to what's said rather than what's assumed, the ability to step back and laugh and above all remembering that there is another human being involved not just a remote computer. And maybe occasionally remembering that showing grace is always more important than winning. There might be a few (a very few) who've been argued into faith. But I know of a lot more who've been attracted to Jesus by the love and grace his followers have shown. (Note to self - Keep that in mind!)

Posted by dan @ 10/23/2003 11:35 PM CST

Yep, I agree. Words of wisdom for everyone and me.

Posted by phil @ 10/23/2003 11:02 PM CST

I've left a couple of online communities where no-one was listening, merely waiting until the other person drew breath to jump in with their own pre-packaged speech. That's no fun, it can (and did) degenerate into hostility, and finally the whole community died.

Sadly there are some people who can best help the cause of evangelism by shutting up. Met some of those. It always bugged me that in that Christian community, some of the best behaved people, the politest, most willing to dialog as opposed to grandstand, were the Wiccans.

End of the day, you're ruler of your own blog, and you don't have to put up with people using it to deliver their speeches or pick fights. If someone truly came here with just that intention, they need to turn off the computer and get a life in the real world. We have better things to do than kindergarten education in how to interact with humans. To quote Bud Lightyear:"You're a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity."

Hang in there mate. Trolls aren't worth the aggro. You're doing something very constructive with this blog that reaches a lot of people, and the trolls are outnumbered by the people that care.

Posted by Ali @ 10/23/2003 03:25 PM CST

Totally with you on this one, Richard. Good post.

Posted by Wood @ 10/23/2003 02:54 PM CST

gee - I can relate to this one Richard.

Of late I've seen a few bloggers posting things that have stirred me up and made me want to jump in - but to be honest, I'm very tired.

Sometimes its probably best to just avoid them all together because nothing that you will say will change the other (and probably visa versa....I'm pretty stubborn).

However there are times when we need to make a stand....I find it hard to discern when those times are and when its best to stand back. Your advice is good - I guess we need to look at ourselves and also the 'other' and work out if its worth the fight.

Hmmm....I hear you mate

Posted by Darren Rowse @ 10/23/2003 02:09 PM CST

Have you noticed that people that listen are less likely to make assumptions?

Listening also involves asking good questions and waiting for an answer. It involves a willingness to hear, and clarify what the other is saying. It involves understanding and placing someone in higher regard. A good argument has some give to it.

We all joke about it, its a way to relieve some of the frustration and sadness when we bump into rare bloggers whose opinion and agenda has to take precedent. There will always be people who don't know how to say I'm sorry I think. They are to be pitied.I've never understood people that need to be right at their own expense and at the expense of everyone around them.

Example: An open comment I made at duex ego was assumed to be something so off base from what I said, I didn't have the energy or will to correct it. Why? I wouldn't have been heard. Conclusions had already been jumped to. Duex ego is a blog that exhibits hyper-graphology. That isn't conversation. There are hundreds of great bloggers that are eager to engage and listen.

I agree we can remain polite, and showing grace is our responsibility as followers of Jesus Christ, whether another is able to or not.It's really hard sometimes.

At Josh Claybourns, people get lost in the noise and the agenda of the blogger. Sometimes the best thing to do is just walk away. Both these bloggers are doing very well and get all the attention they need or want.

I agree that blogging isn't a battle or something to win. Good arguments don't forget the person on the other side of the screen. Blog on!

Posted by Bene Diction @ 10/23/2003 12:26 PM CST